A number of articles of Professor Anatoly Klyosov on DNA genealogy has caused a wide resonance among our audience. From readers came the flurry of responses and questions. We contacted the Professor and he gave us an exclusive interview explaining the details of his research.
– What achievement DNA-genealogy in the study of the history of the Russian people you think are most important today?
– Broken a lot of copies around, who are the Rus and where they came from. A lot of imagined interpretations, with the lack of facts make up a wild imagination.
DNA genealogy has received a precise answer to this question. “Accurate” here, this one that to the maximum extent consistent with objective scientific data. So, I remind you that the history of the Russian plain is crucial to the corded ware Culture and Fatyanovo culture. The first was born around 5,200 years ago, and ended 4,500 years ago. She moved to Fatyanovskaya culture, stretching from Belarus to the territory of today Tatarstan and Chuvash Republic.
So, the fatyanovo people never Russ didn’t call only because the notions of many historians of the ancient Slavs can not be. Allegedly, the Slavs and the Russian is almost no roots. In other words, the default is that the ancient ancestors of the Slavs in General and Russian in particular and there was not.
About ants and Sklave is still possible to find some information in the literature, but about who was fatyanovo people, no nothing. Type, it is not clear who they are. However, DNA analysis showed that fatyanovo people belong to haplogroup R1a, and half the contemporary ethnic Russians, too – R1a.
Moreover, burials and graves of the fatyanovo people was typical of people belonging to the haplogroup R1a. In other words, the fatyanovo people are direct ancestors of the modern half of the ethnic Russians, having the same haplogroup R1a (the other half have the I2a haplogroup, N1c1, and minor number of the haplogroup or lineage).
Now the question is: why do people Fatyanovo culture is not called the ancient Russ? Yes, because the chiefs of the important historical institutions were not given their sanction for the term. Enter the names of the people who have powers, and that the answer to the question. And they, first, don’t know about that fatyanovo people – the direct ancestors of modern half Russian, and secondly, do not want to change, because liberals immediately will call “nationalists”, and it is for academic historians worse than the war – farewell, foreign grants, who have.
However, DNA tests unequivocally show a direct link between ethnic Russians and fatyanovo people, and I think one of the recent major achievements of the DNA-genealogy.
– There is a lot of speculation about the alleged Finno-Ugric origin of the Russian people. What tells the DNA-genealogy on this?
– Of course, I’m such arguments encountered more than once and consider them as part of the information war. From the same category as the notorious normannizm it. Normannizm it and Finno-ugrism is twins. And the tone took like Finno-Ugric is something bad.
Especially this last feature of the Ukrainian falsifiers of history and their ignorant allies “from the crowd”. The best, what they thought, is that the Russian – a mixture of Finno-Ugric peoples and the Mongols. First, is racism, which I do not accept all people, of course, equal, no people above or below others.
Second, DNA tests determined that haplogroup N1c1, which is incorrectly called “Finno-Ugric”, the modern ethnic Russians on average 14%, but this average. If to go from Pskov to the North, this number is growing, and in the area of the White sea reaches about 40%.
If you go to the South of Russia, in the Kursk, Belgorod and Orel oblasts their number is reduced to 5%, and becomes less than, say, Ukraine. And the reason is clear – a simple geographical factor. The further South from the Baltic, the less the content of the haplogroup N1c1. In the Balkans, for example, it generally is not. And the Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians observed equality of the contents of the haplogroups R1a and N1c1 – 40% each, the rest – minor number of impurities, generally, “visitors” over the last couple of years.
Third, Lithuanians and Latvians, as carriers of haplogroup N1c1 ethnic Russians, what are they “Finno-Ugrians”? “Finno-Ugric” is a known scientific definition of native Finno-Ugric languages. And in Lithuania, Latvia, Pskov, and Kursk did not speak Finno-Ugric languages. So the question is not what to be Finno-Ugric is something shameful or reprehensible, but the fact that it’s wrong.
Fourth, the haplogroup N1c1 appeared in the Baltic States and the territory of the Russian plain, approximately 2,500 years ago, in the middle of I Millennium BC, and it appeared first in the southern Baltic and its carriers, probably spoke languages of the Indo-European family, as the carriers of haplogroup R1a, and then on the territory of modern Finland, approximately 1500-2000 years ago.
By that time in the territory of the Russian plain have long existed Fatyanovo culture. There were people belonging to the haplogroup R1a. Most interesting is that when I search for the roots of the myth about Finno-Ugric origin of Russian, we see that initially this thesis was formulated only as a hypothesis. It was only a suggestion, you know? Grounds for the hypothesis was not invented them, through the interpretation of indirect data. And then just invented, when data was not.
When the hypothesis given for the indisputable fact that we are faced with an ideological approach. And his goal clear: to introduce among Russian the belief that they would live in a strange land. Slavs are supposedly aliens, and the territory is rightfully not theirs.
Similarly, in my opinion, built the Norman theory. Supposedly, the Russian state based migrant people, some “Scandinavians”, which laid the everything – craft, and diplomacy, and military Affairs. And they were in Russia, visible-invisible, some Normanist say that tens of thousands, others hundreds of thousands.
One thing – where some of their descendants in the Russian plain gone. Even if they 1000-1200 years ago there were only 100-200 people, now there would be many of their descendants. But they are not. After a long search for descendants of Scandinavians in Russia could hardly have found four people who have no idea that their DNA is “Scandinavian” label. Their ancestors did know that to grandpa. In Ukraine have not found any, in Belarus – none, Lithuania – none.
In DNA genealogy “Scandinavian” label is called Z284. It is, of course, fully in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and guess where? In the British Isles – England, Ireland, Scotland where historical data were Vikings. But they only went to the West to the East, they did not go.
No “Normans” in Russia was not, except as inmates in the castle Nut, Yes with the troops of Charles XII with some success. Descendants here they managed to acquire. It turns out that “Scandinavian” swords Slavs brought from military campaigns, as trophies, and then do it yourself. It is the same building, “Norse buildings”. Look in the area of lake Ladoga to Scandinavian chromosomes”, you will not find. They are not, and never was. So “Norman theory” falls apart like a house of cards.
– It is often claimed that the name of the capital of Russia Finno-Ugric origin, and it is considered one of the proofs of Finno-Ugric origin of the Russian people.
– Yes, indeed, claim that “Moscow” allegedly translated from Finno-Ugric. Others, however, argue that with Turkish. Others – that it is from the Arabic word “Mosk” meaning “mosque” (from the Arabic مسجد [ˈmæsdʒɪd] — “place of worship”).
But in fact, there are at least two dozen versions of the origin of the word, to the point that in Latin there is the word “Mosqa” (women’s Union, the brotherhood of the monastery). However, about all versions “forget” to put forward only one possible interpretation, but still it serves not as a speculation but as a supposedly “proved” the fact. This is the lack of a scientific approach to pedal only one version throws and the other as if not.
Actually, I can see how bending over backwards trying to “prove” that on the Russian plain originally lived not Russian. Talking about Swedes, Finno-uhry, of the ancient Germans – if only not Russian. Fortunately, now there is a mathematically precise tool (DNA genealogy), which puts a definite end to all these inventions.
DNA genealogy is so good that it is an exact science that does not allow many of the ideological reinterpretation. We do not accord any old names, do not take two broken pot and subjective similarity of their appearance does not make far-reaching conclusions, and not take for granted who and what was said in ancient times, Herodotus or Homer.
We only accept the facts, direct evidence. We stand for honest science, not one that is based on “opinions”, and opinions revolve in any desired direction, depending on external or internal order.
– Consider another well-known culture, which stretched from the southern Urals to the Dniester. It is the Yamna culture, from Dating 4600-5300 years ago
– In the academic literature expressed the idea that the representatives of the Pit culture created Afanasievsky culture of the Altai. This conclusion is based on just visual similarity of the material characteristics of the two cultures.
However, the question arises: on what basis, it is concluded that the Afanas brought the culture of South Siberia and not Vice versa? And they say a lot similar, with the Pit Afanasyevskaya. Great, but why the similarity is interpreted in one direction only? And because it has long been expressed, and zabronzovel”. So, it is not a science.
DNA genealogy is able to clearly show not only the connection of cultures, but the direction of migration of peoples. Now with the help of DNA tests proved that the natives of southern Siberia, including the ancestors of pit culture people, moved West. The roots of Pit-grave culture was in Afanasyevskaya culture, and not Vice versa. And from Yamna culture of those ancient people (haplogroup R1b) went South through the Caucasus to Mesopotamia and not to the West, supposedly in Europe, as already half a century, historians believe with the archaeologists.
No DNA “pit culture people” in Europe, but a lot of them in the descendants in the Caucasus and in Turkey, and further, to bypass the Mediterranean sea on the Iberian Peninsula. And from there – quick check-in continental Europe 4800-4400 years ago, and then more slowly and thoroughly up to 3000 years ago, before the beginning of the I Millennium BC. e.
For historians it was a solution to the old riddle – where went the culture beaker? And she went to continental Europe to the Iberian Peninsula, since 4800 years ago. There is of course also a lot of mysteries solved, including the one in which languages was spoken by the invaders of Europe, why and how he died of “Old Europe” who were the Celts and where they came from, and much more.
– Your opponents constantly emphasize that You are a geneticist, a chemist, and therefore are not a professional in the field in which you are engaged. Even the most ardent opponents don’t question Your world-class achievements in chemistry. But this is not genetics, agree?
– There is an elementary substitution of the thesis. DNA-genealogy and genetics are two different things, and different scientific disciplines. I never said I was a geneticist, never claimed that I was doing genetic research. I’m actually not a neurosurgeon, not a sword-swallower, but where are the DNA-genealogy? That is also genetics.
DNA genealogy is on the shoulders of geneticists, more precisely, on one shoulder. The other shoulder is physical chemistry. The third shoulder, if such it was – is a historical science. And I am a specialist in physical chemistry, in genetics do not understand. So genetics could not create the DNA genealogy. I could not create genetics that do not pretend.
If half-jokingly, that DNA genealogy is the application of chemical methods for processing data obtained by geneticists. See the difference or not?
Simply put, what is DNA? It is deoxyribonucleic acid. Acid, you know? Well, now let someone say that chemists acids are not involved and it is not their sphere of professional activity. Ridiculous.
Seriously, the most important part of DNA genealogy is the transformation of the pattern of mutations developed in time, in a chronological indicators. In other words, during the time that passed since certain historical events and phenomena, as, for example, ancient migrations, the formation of ancient archaeological cultures, the transition of migrants to other regions and on other continents, the evolution of man – there, too, an evolution took place in time.
There is a huge role of mutation rate in the Y-chromosome, more precisely, in different parts of the chromosome, and for this it is necessary to know the equations of velocities of reactions methodology for specialized calculations.
It’s not genetics, and nothing to do with the genetics has not. This is DNA genealogy. But genetics and physical chemistry, and in history understand a little. Not their methodology. Here DNA-genealogy and came to the junction of Sciences. It is now called “multidisciplinary approach.” It is about us.
-Thank you for your detailed answers. Questions there are still many, and we will contact You again if You don’t mind.
-Of course, please.
