Voinovich about Savchenko, Putin and Panfilov
Why are people so tenaciously cling to the myths – the writer Vladimir Voinovich in the program Elena Rykovtseva
Elena Rykovtseva: today we Have unusual and wonderful event, and we will enter the Studio in a minute Vladimir Nikolaevich Voinovich. While it is not, I will tell you about what we are going to do, what to discuss. The first theme is the dismissal of the Director of State archive Sergey Mironenko, who was the guest of our Studio of Radio Liberty. The second theme is the theme of Nadia Savchenko, Savchenko as an indicator of some conditions of society. And the third topic is an unexpected surprise, which made Vladimir Putin the Russian audience, Russian troops withdrawing, withdrawing just as suddenly as he entered from Syria. The fourth is the letter, which was signed including Vladimir Nikolayevich Voinovich is a Russian letter to Russian intellectuals of the opposition, “Let us unite”. Why does he believe that they are able to come together if still not merged.
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I want to remind you what happened with Sergei V. Mironenko during this time. Actually I think the main passion revolved around it after Congress of the Russian press, in which he took part and informed the audience what he had said repeatedly in many interviews, many conversations, generally absolutely no surprise. He said that 28 guardsmen are a myth is a story that was fictional. Nothing new, but this information produced a bombshell. I suddenly found that editors of many Russian publications, especially in the CIS, had no idea that he already knew the generations from the time of the investigation Cardin. Scandal broke, he began to accuse, to write letters, denunciations, and so forth. Then apparently subsided. But in July, Sergey comes to us on the air:
Sergey Mironenko: first, it’s not a myth and falsification, let’s call a spade a spade. Falsification is sooner or later always be exposed. One who engages in fraud, must understand that 10, 20, 30, maybe 100 years, but the story is terrible science. In General, the task of history, to say the least, is the search for truth.
Elena Rykovtseva: so you think that ideologues don’t think so, they love to adapt the story to fit your needs.
Sergey Mironenko: This is a completely different thing. History and propaganda are two different things. Therefore, the fact that the street Panfilov Heroes or the monument to the heroes of Panfilov is a very right thing. I do not understand how you can assume that if there are 28 characters and 28 if this fictional feat, no feat of the Panfilov at all. It is only the twisted mind could even suggest such a thing. The Panfilov division was, she played a prominent role in the defense of Moscow. Most unfortunately the soldiers of this division laid the head on the outskirts, defending Moscow, their feat is immortal, and so on. Now, with regard to 28. When 6 of those 28 that are supposedly in a grave at the Dubosekovo railway passing place appeared alive, how could the Soviets not find out what is happening? You should lie in the ground, and you appeared.
And here is the word “falsification” from the mouth of the Director of the State archives has caused a frenzy of Vladimir Medinsky, Minister of culture. July 20 was our broadcast, on the 30th he stated that at the Board meeting in his Ministry: “the head of the archive is not a writer, not a journalist, not a wrestler with historical falsifications. If you have the desire to change the profession, we can understand. The main task – to provide the documents, and then let the press draw conclusions. It is desirable to provide them with all the documents, not half. I often go on duty at the concerts and in the movies, sometimes hard to hold back, but I try not to say anything specific. Imagine what would have happened if I’d delivered a comprehensive review is another profession”. And here during these months Vladimir Medinsky consistently told Sergei Mironenko, what is the other profession is called falsification falsification. What it led to, we saw: the man was dismissed yesterday from his post. It turns out that the Director of the State archives can not be called a lie a fraud, he’s not a journalist.
Vladimir Voinovich: He is not a citizen, I have citizenship to deprive then.
Elena Rykovtseva: He needs to tie his mouth and everywhere to put on the table.
Vladimir Voinovich: the Archive is subordinated to the Ministry of culture?
Elena Rykovtseva: Everything is subordinated to the Ministry, the same public education.
Vladimir Voinovich: I remember the story from ancient times, from 60-ies, when there was an article by the famous Emile Cardin “Legends and facts”. Then, too, the outrage has been the chief forger Alexander Krivitsky, he just raged, wrote some angry philippics. Although he himself, somewhere he was interrogated, before that, in 1948 was the decision of the Military Prosecutor’s office, acknowledged that this story is called literary fiction. The genre of this work is literary fiction. In this time, killed a hundred people and not 28, they died heroically. But 28 – they clung to it. One by the name of dobrobabina then served in the German police, hero of the Soviet Union, then he was arrested, he escaped and served again in the German police.
Elena Rykovtseva: Paid Director of the archive for it at the Congress of the Russian press first, then we have dedicated chief editors of Russian Newspapers in this story. What for them it was a shock, you can’t imagine what started the scandal, cry, complaint. I witnessed all of this, I described it in may of last year. Everything you just said was absolute news. Chief editors of Newspapers who do not know anything.
Vladimir Voinovich: I saw that people are surprised. I thought it was already a well – known fact that this fact was not. Turns out, it still introduces people into a state of shock. The fact that we have so many people who cling to the legend, contrary to the facts, the facts despise, legends assert as a fact, that is to defend a lie. And actually this is linked to another. Now the Ministry of culture some people arrested, I noticed a direct correlation here: those people who stand on the side of a lie – in and theft, and bribery, and everything else. The connection here is simple: if someone is dishonest in one thing, he certainly will manifest dishonesty in another and so on. This relationship is natural.
Elena Rykovtseva: Why people care in this myth and hold, why is it so tenacious? Why they don’t want to accept the fact that there were people in there, they’re not invented, they were only 100, 140, there were more. No, we don’t want, we don’t want killed these, we want to 28.
Vladimir Voinovich: Obviously, consciously or subconsciously, these people have this ideology that if there is any ideology, it is precisely this that the lie is more important than truth, and in General, needs to be a habit to lie. As said Bagritsky: “If you say “lie” – a lie. If I say “kill” – kill”. People should give him a choice to tell the truth or lie, if he will hold on to the truth he is kind of strange how Mironenko was a stranger to them. And easy lie, no matter what.
Elena Rykovtseva: so it works the system “friend or foe”: if you lie – you your.
Vladimir Voinovich: If you can support any point of view, such or such, then your.
Elena Rykovtseva: let’s look at what people on the streets of Moscow, how they answered the question, myth or not.
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Elena Rykovtseva: Please your comment for these comments.
Vladimir Voinovich: first of All, I’m surprised that some people still imagine that it is a myth. I thought there is one, but it turns out more, so I’m pleasantly surprised. The fact that people hammered into the brains, if you doubt, you’re not a patriot. It’s quite strange, because the real feat of the red army was not less, even more than what is described in this myth. Because he killed over a hundred people on this site. There is a little bit messed up, and the scene and everything, but more people have been killed. Of these 28 some heroes survived, they were not even together. But somehow the authorities really need to state propaganda, I can understand, when the Soviet propaganda.
Elena Rykovtseva: And this is why modern power Soviet myths?
Vladimir Voinovich: I think that somewhere is the important thing: you must believe in what you say, and what is or isn’t – it’s none of your business. When you say, you must believe it. From what is happening now, is also say, sometimes a person believes, sometimes disbelieves, so he ought to believe and what was and what is, and what will be.
Elena Rykovtseva: That is, they did not say that you do not need this myth to believe, then you have to believe in it, and therefore, irritating the Director of the state Archives that don’t fit into it.
Vladimir Voinovich: none of your business, do your archive and do. And each other person: what are you, the writer, the books I write and write, but not about this.
Elena Rykovtseva: And not your job to dispel the myths and falsifications in any case. The second important and complex topic we must discuss is the Hope Savchenko and regarding the case of Russian society, the Russian authorities. Your personal attitude, for example, to this woman who today is languishing in the dungeons? Whether society manifests himself maturely in this story?
Vladimir Voinovich: I also think it would be good for society to poll. For me it is quite obvious. Incidentally, the first story and this associated.
Elena Rykovtseva: a story of two myths, that’s right.
Vladimir Voinovich: the one Myth that is created right before our eyes, and we too must believe, if you don’t believe, then you’re not a patriot, then you’re a bad person. You have to believe in the unbelievable. How about the 28 Panfilov heroes, who stopped 50 tanks, almost two tanks per person, so we have to believe that this girl, somewhere, being at a far distance, directed artillery strikes on two of our journalists, which she could not see, even if she was there. And you know, there she was, all the evidence against the fact that she was there at the time. Creates a legend, but she becomes a legendary person. She folds her legend, her legend deserves more respect than that. Generally, of course, it just shows miracles of courage, of heroism, fortitude under that kind of pressure, completely defenseless. The fact is that when people behave like this, Sugars, among other things, said that people should behave the way tell him his feelings, it turns out that it was his behavior in the end is the most rational, the most pragmatic. Here she behaves, she’ll get that she’s released, I’m sure, one way or another, it will trade for someone. Her first impulse was, it was not quite prudent, it is simply defending its honor, dignity and truth.
Elena Rykovtseva: You know, even if its exchange, part of the society still remains the feeling that Yes, due to political pressure, Obama intervened, pushed, poor Russia was again forced to obey. To me this story is appalling that nobody comes to see on the other side of these journalists, which sent their chiefs are not trained, Igor Koroluk taken was from Murmansk, the writer, absolutely not seasoned, which never in any combat action was not involved, thrown on this monstrous plot, they are not taught that we should always have to wear bullet-proof vests. The most important thing in this story, which is now silent all the TV heads, they were without jackets in the day, to identify in them the journalists could not at all desire. They are on the eve of the vests arrived, shot this footage, and then the next day suddenly, without telling anyone, went there again, no one even understood why they went, some haze take some film pictures vrichika. They went without helmets, no jackets on this place and was in a group of militias, on which the mortar hit. No one even ponder that a crime was committed the heads of these journalists, who sent them to the Donbass, not teaching how to behave in hot spots. The emphasis of the society were shifted perfectly this way. It is no coincidence that we don’t see relatives of these journalists or in the court, you see the weeping mothers, fathers, wives on TV? No. They see this farce for whatever reason do not participate. I think it’s very symptomatic. I think if they wanted to use from an advocacy point of view, they would be used. Do not use, so can not for some reason.
Vladimir Voinovich: in General it is the history that surrounds so many stupid things. Moreover, the feature of our outreach endeavors that they start, then you see that too much today, already got somewhere, give up something, stand aside, say that you made a mistake or someone made a mistake, no, go to end. Now just a hopeless situation with Savchenko, her being force-fed or be the death of me, what to do with it? With it nothing can be done, it is already his persecutors defeated.
Elena Rykovtseva: His spirit. Let’s see what they say on the street.
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Elena Rykovtseva: I would like to talk to you on the subject of this beautiful unexpected surprise, which gave Vladimir Putin his people. Yesterday we brought in troops, and today derive, as the tail in the donkey Eeyore – and comes and goes. As you all received it?
Vladimir Voinovich: I was reminded of the joke about the alcoholic who does not know with whom to drink, he’s a cockroach on a string, he lets him go, saying, “out!”. Drinks. Attracts then: “welcome back!”. Again drinks. I liked that all our media reported that the news caught the Americans by surprise. We are all caught unawares, and when he entered by surprise, now go out unprepared.
Elena Rykovtseva: Important Americans! His type were in the course, they consulted, all voted. What this manner is demonstrated, the Russian leadership, surprises?
Vladimir Voinovich: It suggests that we continue this form of autocracy, or when the autocrat himself, or together with the circle close to him people decides: it decides to do so, decides to start a war, decides to finish it, and the people are known to be silent, except the people on the street sometimes say something.
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