For ten years she was first lady of Georgia. Now 47-year-old Sandra Roelofs-Saakashvili — the second number in the list of the opposition party “United national movement”. In the parliamentary elections on 8 October she will fight for parliamentary seat in the majority district in the Zugdidi district. Error Mikheil Saakashvili, about the danger of a new revolution, about why she understands Putin, and why her husband is so alarming the West, the former first lady of Georgia said in an interview to the special correspondent of RFI.
When you meet with your supporters, do you think they support your candidacy or giving voice for you, they thus Express their confidence Mikheil Saakashvili?
I would say me, my husband and the party. I have not had a political career. But I have done a lot for health care reform. I’m 15 years engaged in charity, which served as a good start for political activities. But politics was never my dream. But now it has become my…
The Georgian dream?
Dream to do something today for Georgia. Especially because my husband can’t do it, can’t fight for voters. I can’t say that doing it for him, but this factor plays a role. I’m sure I also have a large political clout, reputation. Many I associate with my husband, you know more about me as a politician, but trust me. They know that the government of Mikhail Saakashvili did a lot of good for the country but we should also admit that not only good…it’s been four years, and there is nothing to compare with the policies of the current authorities.
A few days ago you said that your Saakashvili will return to celebrate the victory of his party. If your political party will lose, how do you imagine his return?
It will be difficult to return in case of defeat. Against him initiated several criminal cases. So he has to stand trial. If there is no change in the government, it will be difficult to return.
In this case, you will remain here and he there?
I’m sure my place is here. I can do a lot for Georgia. It would be nice if my husband was able to return and strengthen our party because he has a lot of experience. But for this we need a victory in Parliament.
For you it is also a victory for the return of Mikhail Saakashvili in Georgia?
Yes. For many in our party it is. And to our voters. He created this party, he is its leader. He became the father of a new Georgia. All is associated with him. But now he is Ukrainian. According to Georgian law, it means that he has no political rights. As a foreigner he has no right even to interfere in the election campaign.
The whole world recognizes that he had an incredible way of Georgia. In recent years, after the war with Russia some things were, like, too controlled. We are able to discuss about this…
You acknowledge political mistakes of your husband?
He also admits. For example, a policy of “zero tolerance” was very severe when offenders are imprisoned. Some might just get off with a fine, that is, the law was very tightened. Of course, this led to lower crime, more control, improved investment climate, however, growing discontent of those who, for example, made a mistake in accounting and ended up in jail. I believe that over time this policy had to be mitigated. This leads to nazhivanie many enemies.
Today you confidently talk about your victory, and Mikhail Saakashvili, on his return to Georgia. But what are you going to take action in case of defeat? Or are you going to go to the end? But authorities have accused the former President in the preparation of the coup…do You allow such a path to victory?
It all depends on the results. We have forecasts. Let’s wait for the election results, as well as evaluation observers. It will be a barometer: if this reflects the result of the real mood in society. And if not, we remember the situation in 2003, when occurred the “revolution of roses”. People took to the streets, because they saw in the election results mismatch their expectations. They demanded new elections. Have not heard them, and they stayed on the street until the end, as, for example, then it was in Ukraine. Saakashvili’s party peacefully came to power. I hope that the revolution this time will not.
At the meeting you said that your husband will return, but not in a revolutionary way.
I think our victory will be convincing enough. And nobody puts it in doubt. Otherwise it is very risky. In 2003 too, there were risks, but it was a different era. I hope to do it again and my husband is a lawyer understands that he can do, and what not. Especially after today, he is confident that we will be able to take first place in the second round in majority districts will decide. And that will be really really tough fight. We are afraid that there will be intimidation, corruption, bribery of voters by the party of power. It will be difficult. But I don’t want to look that far. While we will see what happens on Saturday and then decide the tactics.
But Mikhail Saakashvili is a fan of risk?
It’s true (laughs). But I don’t. A lot of people willing to take risks for their country, but need the confidence that the people behind him will, that victory will be for him.
You are not ready, as he, to take a big risk. Do you think your approach is more pragmatic?
It is obvious that he is more Georgian than me (laughs). He has a different style. But we complement each other. So together we are a strong team.
He gives you any advice? What it the most valuable advice you remember?
(Thought) He gives me a lot of practical tips. He reminds me that shaking hands with people, you need to look them in the eye.
He teaches politics?
Yeah, but I’m not just his “school”. But he also has extensive experience with the media.
The area where you put forward your candidacy, on the border with Abkhazia. Live there including a lot of refugees after the war of 2008. There are those who balanced policy of Ivanishvili or even wish to begin relations with Russia with a clean slate he calls a betrayal. What you have to offer to the voters? How do you see relations with Moscow?
It is very difficult. It’s like Germany and the Netherlands. Among these countries there was a war. It took us years to get through it. Even now there are not that hostility, but a kind of restraint, even in people of my generation. I am 47 years old. War, and even a occupation for a very long time leave its mark. A few weeks difficult to find a solution. We have come a long way and we still have a lot to go through. For example, even children — not only my child, but many of his generation — do not want to learn Russian language. The war was only 8 years ago. It’s so quickly forgotten.
I believe that the positive role it can play in the economic development of Georgia. We thus can be of interest to Abkhazia. She wants to be with a strong Georgia than to be independent, but weak. I think that progress in the economy will give a lot of chances in order to resolve the issue of Abkhazia, but this does not mean Russia too. Because for the Kremlin, Georgia always was and will be the country that he doesn’t want to let go.
I understand Putin. He was born in the Empire, part of which was including Georgia. And suddenly, for some unknown reasons, all these Soviet Republic gained independence. And he wants to fix it, because for him the collapse of the USSR is the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the last century. I understand, but he does not respect the rights of those living in this territory people. And it is very archaic thinking. If we want to develop, go ahead, you need to take into account the desire of these people. If they want the EU or NATO, that’s their right. Putin does not take our struggle for independence as a legal right, but as an error which must be corrected. So, knowing this, we can say that all his actions are logical. But I think Putin is a phenomenon of the past. He is not a man of our time.
You said several times that I understand him. Here you have long lived in the West. There understand it?
Unfortunately, not really. To better understand Russia, you need at least to live in Eastern Europe. I understand Putin in Georgia. Moscow is now occupied by the Ukraine, Syria. And in Georgia, she “took a break”. But they are trying to gradually pick up in the North of our country, the acres of land. Unfortunately, the government is somehow not react. Of course, Russia is not ready to attack Georgia, but what she does is called slow capture.
In 2008, under the mediation of French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who chaired then the EU managed to stop the fighting. When he came here, he in Georgia was welcomed warmly. Now the ex-President is preparing again to fight for the presidency of the Republic. He became friends with Putin and has even said that Crimea chose Russia. How do you respond? Georgia lost “French friend”, or it proves that in politics there are no friends?
Before he had another position. I would not dare to say so, I’m not so long in politics. But in politics, with friends need to be very careful. My husband and Sarkozy had a good rapport. The ex-President of France played a major role in those events. Then the President was not Putin, and Medvedev. Thanks to the French President, we have avoided the worst, otherwise there would be an attack on Tbilisi.
You start a political career. In the West, in such cases, they ask the question “where do you see yourself in ten years”. So I ask you, you are again the first lady or already the President of Georgia?
(Laughs) ten years from now I hope to be a grandmother. My son is 21. I don’t know… the Situation in Georgia is changing so fast. My political career is not intended for a couple of years. I do not perceive politics as a tool of obtaining some benefit, I feel really useful in this country. This is a new way for me.
As a child you probably could not imagine that they can do politics in a completely different country?
Yes, I do about politics and thought. I wanted to be a writer. I wrote one book when she became first lady. It’s called “The story of idealist”. This book is about my life in Georgia, about integration in society.
You often travel to Ukraine?
Almost every month. If my husband had a choice, he would like to work in Kiev. To change there policies to fight corruption.
It often happens in Kiev?
Yes. His goal is to work in Kiev, not in Odessa. I think he has fulfilled his task.
What about going back to Georgia?
It is not yet clear. He understands that if you change the Ukraine, it would be better for Georgia. Of course, I mean, against Russia in the fight against corruption, etc. But it’s very difficult in Ukraine. There are other scales, they have local big business interests.
You think that Ukrainian authorities do not give him the way? They are afraid of his ambition?
It is not the people. The people just want to see there, it’s all about the elite. But I would say — in the position of Europe and the USA too. They look at him with suspicion, and consider him a controversial figure. It’s not fair. He has such a style…
That scares Europeans?
Not that scary. They are just difficult to manage, difficult to scare, and corrupt. He likes to take risks, he is not afraid. He doesn’t take bribes, so for Europeans it is also very capricious.
Well, what if the Europeans do not call on Ukraine to fight corruption? What you are saying sounds paradoxical.
I know, but they are the same as the power in Russia, want to have a sphere of influence in Ukraine. And to achieve this is always easier when you know who is in power and what this man is malleable. Michael has a personal agenda regardless of the opinions of Americans or Europeans, so it causes discomfort. They prefer to deal with some corrupt, than with the person is unpredictable. So Europeans and Americans about my husband talking to the Ukrainian authorities: “Odessa — well, but closer to Kiev don’t let…” My husband explains, I guess there’s this.
Elena Gabrielian
(Not a small role plays in the West and a fear that under Saakashvili, Ukraine is more independent and more assertive stance towards Russia – ER)
